Inside Nearshoring Online Show Pilot – Interview with Cyril Samovskiy, Mobilunity CEO
Full video transcript:
Alfie: Welcome to “Inside Nearshoring” with me, Alfie and welcome Cyril, our guest. So I think what we’ll do is just to get everybody acclimated and we all know who we’re talking to I’d love for you to tell our viewers a little bit more about, you know, who you are, what you do and why this “Inside Nearshoring” episode is important to you.
Cyril: Thank you. So to be quite brief, I guess, I’m Cyril [kiril] or in the French part of Switzerland and in France – Cyril [ˈsɪrəl]. I’m the CEO and founder of Mobilunity, a Ukrainian-based company providing nearshore development services. Our primary focus and our primary service are providing dedicated development teams, and this is what we have been doing for the past four years. The company itself is approximately 200 people now and, aside of my primary duty of actually leading the company, of course, I’m applying my best effort in regards to promoting the full nearshoring idea to our potential European markets and/or, as the people say in Israel or Japan – offshoring it is, whatever.
Alfie: Awesome! So, as you mentioned, this is all about going inside and showing people things that maybe they wouldn’t have known years ago. Unless they had already tried nearshore, or unless they were industry insiders. So with that being said, with the current situation, with COVID-19 pandemic, do you believe that this topic is something people should just wait until the pandemic is over?
Cyril: I cannot advise people, because I’m biased, but what we can be fairly stated is that we see an increase of interest to what we are doing now. And the reason behind this is quite obvious and natural. The people are no longer working in offices and somehow working with remote people. Of course, right now after maybe one or two months of lockdown at homes and home offices, the majority of companies are still working with the developers, the teams that they were hiring in offline mode, they know each other well and such conditions and circumstances put a little bit of constraint over the model overall. But if you think what may happen in six months from now, maybe in the year, if the world is really changing towards the same direction: we’ll be hiring people staying remote, we’ll be assessing them remotely, we’ll be judging on their soft skills and hard skills all staying in remote and if it’s all remote, then why limiting yourself to something that you have locally in your city or in your country. We see people are coming out more and more just to inquire, just to ask the questions about how exactly this can be organized and whether or not such experience will be smooth for them. Maybe sometimes they come over even just to hear how exactly we’re managing our business. Because the core of it is still like working with remote development teams and this is what we have been doing for the past four or five years. The companies who try this now get lots of challenges, lots of new things happening to that. But I think the answer to your question would be of course the readiness of the company, the scope, and domain where they operate. But down the road, the borders will be less meaningful and significant to hiring the right people. And this is what we believe.
We’ll be hiring people staying remote, we’ll be assessing them remotely, we’ll be judging on their soft skills and hard skills all staying in remote and if it’s all remote, then why limiting yourself to something that you have locally in your city or in your country.
Alfie: You said “scope and domain”. With that being said, who needs nearshoring? Is it industry-specific? Are there industries, which you, as a business owner, would say “I’m not going to touch that” when it comes to nearshore or is it pretty much everything? Could you please just give some insight into that process and into how things work?
Cyril: I can say there are some specific domains or industries or verticals, as we say, that are easier than others are applicable to the nearshoring model. For e-commerce, this is a considerably easier topic than for banking. Just because of obvious compliance, security legislation and all the questions like this. But even looking at our 40-plus clients now, we’re quite represented in very various industries. We have insurtech, we have insurance, we have fintech, we have a few banks, we have e-commerce, we have small businesses, we have startups where have hardware and software companies – we have so many domains all in one model, so it seems there is no specific industry, which would benefit the most. We have a number of cases when different sectors, different domains, even security-sensitive domains, are still utilizing the most of what nearshoring or offshoring can provide. We have Israeli companies handling the security for the local domestic market and internationally, while also having their teams in Ukraine. That probably means that there are no restrictions, there are just right and wrong ways of doing nearshoring or offshoring. And this is the matter of how the business will approach and consider the opportunity, and how they will be implementing this challenge for themselves.
There are no restrictions, there are just right and wrong ways of doing nearshoring or offshoring.
Alfie: You’ve mentioned “rights and wrongs” of nearshoring. I tend to believe that in most things, not just nearshoring, that a lot comes down to education and if you know what to do. Do you believe it is possible or necessary to train the clients to understand what nearshoring is? What would be your definition of nearshoring?
Cyril: Nearshoring, opposite to offshoring, is an ability or model when a client is utilizing the best of the country’s and market’s potential nearby to their domestic market. I’m not willing to put an emphasis or focus purely on the labor market, because nearshoring models may vary and the engagement models may differ: project-based, R&D center, dedicated team, or something else. Nearshoring just widens the borders around the country or some union, as the European Union, making it possible to collaborate, to build a partnership with the countries nearby, who are more or less of a similar mentality and, which is very important, not too far from the distance perspective and time zones. This would be probably my more or less formal definition. Maybe too wordy one, but still this is something that we put under the “nearshoring” term.
Nearshoring, opposite to offshoring, is an ability or model when a client is utilizing the best of the country’s and market’s potential nearby to their domestic market.
Alfie: When it comes to your current clientele and what you’ve been building, what would you say is the hardest part about what you do? What’s the most difficult thing about being a supplier? Because obviously, I would assume that the hardest thing about being a client is picking a provider, right? But what’s the hardest thing about being a provider?
Cyril: I think, and you touched upon this when asking your previous question, it is a challenge for us as a supplier or a vendor to convince our clients to listen to us or to trust us. Clients may be coming because their market is very much limited, or they need to be able to scale up or down very fast, or they are seeking for specific technology talent that is not as available to them on the market or else. But the thing is once they come to a vendor, like ourselves, they have to be hearing and listening to what we advise. We’re never making the decisions on behalf of our clients, but we are very proactive in our intent to be sharing what we already know. Because otherwise, if we are not accumulating this experience from previous years of ours and from knowing hundreds of clients that we have been working with, then what would be our value that we charge money for. So, there is a good percentage of clients, who are sure that they need nearshoring services, who are certain about Ukraine and Mobilunity as a company, but then, when they come to us, they stop listening to us. They may be doing their own things just because it fits into their process or things that were common for them in other destinations like Asia. The thing is that we want to be heard and we are applying our best effort in our intent to be explaining and proving that our expertise often is of a big need and value to our clients. This is a challenging part, maybe even the most complex if there is full trust between the companies. And that doesn’t mean that we, as a provider, are always right. We are never telling a client how to act. We are bringing up the knowledge, the risks, the best practices, the cases we used to have and we provide the recommendations of the same. The decision will be still on the client, but if this decision is made with the educated mind, that will probably be the best way of utilizing our model, our expertise and our service.
We want to be heard and we are applying our best effort in our intent to be explaining and proving that our expertise often is of a big need and value to our clients.
Alfie: When we talk about education, where would you say is a good place to start learning about nearshoring? Do you have things that you post or present? Is it some platform? What would you say is the best way to learn about it?
Cyril: I can immediately mention that probably one of the most trustworthy sources for information are peers around every business. We are certain that in Europe specifically if you ask your peers about their experience with nearshoring, I can be giving you a like a 90% guarantee, that most likely there was somebody, who already has an experience like that. These little stories may be initially incomplete or they may be something too radical or too straight. These things, if they are being asked one by one and not otherwise get involved altogether, may be a little bit confusing, but once you get 3-4 opinions from the peers around you, I’m pretty sure that you would understand that there are things not worth doing. Then it comes to to choosing the model and the vendors, who are capable providing such models like outsourcing, outstaffing, dedicated teams, managed teams, freelancers, R&D centers then, of course, you start reading a few blogs, but the most blogs are still written by the people who are whether trying the services or who are actually providing them. And then it comes to a choice of a couple of vendors, who might be on your shortlist, who you think are a fit from just the visual perspective, you explore their website, you see what they are writing about, what they’re telling and things like that. Talking to these people would ideally bring any potential client or person interested to a point whether when the person realizes that all models are not for them now, or the endpoint when the potential client needs to define what’s the most important to them now. Such tips, such tricks, such methodologies are probably the same in every industry. That’s why I’d like to say it wasn’t a question, that is easy to answer. On the other hand, if I would go for any service, I’d probably do the same.
There are also people, who are in this industry, who are not prompting you to buy from them right away, they are just sharing a little bit of insight: your show probably would be one of such sources, my LinkedIn could be one of such service, my blog on some platform might be such a source, the webinars some Polish company might be doing could be such source of information. Just a matter of how much time you might be willing to devote to getting prepared for this kind of analysis and conclusions. But I think overall that the structure of the approach would be probably like this.
Alfie: You’ve mentioned a few things that I want to touch on at least. I heard the term “freelancer”. I know that a lot of people would be asking what’s the difference between me paying somebody directly and me dealing with this company. Could you give us a bit more information why not use a freelancer and is nearshoring and freelancing the same thing?
Cyril: Firstly, I wouldn’t advise not to use freelancers. Even to clients of ours, if they come over and they are hesitant, we tend to be asking some questions to understand if they really need a vendor or maybe the freelancing model might be a fit for them. When it comes to freelancers, I think the most tricky part is that you deal with the individuals, not the company, and the liability and responsibility would be exactly the same as the model operates. If you are working with a freelancer, you may be very lucky in getting an amazing person and you would be happy not to be paying any extras to a vendor between your company and the actual executor, the freelancer. On the other hand, the freelancer himself might be in a good need for some environment or some process that we, as the vendor and supplier, are providing. In this case, the freelancer for some companies in some models might be more effective within our ecosystem, than working directly. On the other hand, maybe the company, who comes to us, as a vendor, wants to ensure intellectual property handling, for example, or they want to ensure there is proper tracking of what is actually happening on the freelancer side without screen capturing or things like that, but they still want to be ensuring that this freelancer is physically at his desk, if it’s in the office or is reporting in details on what exactly was done or maybe they would like to do their code commits twice a day, for example. It all comes from the perspective of what the client might be willing to get and willing to receive as a service. Because if the service is just a person who sits somewhere and does some job, a freelancer might be perfect. But what happens, if a freelancer gets sick, if a freelancer needs more money, but the wage doesn’t allow him to earn more money? What happens, if some richer client comes over to this freelancer and proposes a little bit higher pay or maybe a more interesting project? Will the client suffer from this kind of risk, or if a freelancer decides to leave and what would a vendor, like ourselves, do on such matters? We were designed the way to be taking care of three parts of what we say are 3 parts of nearshoring: relationships with a client, retention of the developers and recruiting for the developers for the new team and as it is. We provide the service with this specific value, so comparing us to freelancers, the potential client needs to keep in mind whether or not they are in need for these specific items that they are offering. And they’ve got to be asking their potential vendor, why would I work with you and not with the freelancers. If the vendor is not prepared to answer, I think you need another vendor or you need freelancers.
Alfie: You’ve mentioned your 3R’s. Those are: relationships, retention and recruitment. Out of those 3, which is the most difficult to maintain?
Cyril: I cannot choose any, to be honest, because I think that they all are very much important. I can say purely from my personal perspective: I can say that the relationship part is something that I am myself investing both of my efforts into just because I have very good people in charge of the other two. And on the relationships part, I’m still at the front of the company. I still need to be on the very edge of this and to be representing the company together with my Partner of Business Development.
Alfie: I suppose from that point of view we gave a good idea of the kind of processes that go into place. How about you share with us what would you say would be an example of a bad experience that you’ve had? As a business owner, as a supplier.
Cyril: I can recall a couple of cases like this, but oddly enough the example that I would be willing to share now is not about the biggest clients of ours. It’s just about the client, who stepped into this relationship with us, as a supplier, without clear understanding of why they do it. It was quite a big company that had a product and they decided to go nearshoring. They did a big job in search for the potential vendors, they chose us, they were very right at the engagement part, when we were ensuring that this is the right client for our developers, this is the right client to be running the long-lasting relationship. But then, when the job actually started, some weird things started happening. There was lack of communication, there was lack of feedback, there was no direction given to the actual team of ours, there was no attention to important things to us, as a vendor, and to the development team, who we hired for them. So it was just a weird understanding, by our side of course, that we are somehow already in this relationship with this client, we are willing to help, but we are not being heard, we are not being to be talking on these matters, to be advising something that would be very much important for the client to actually survive or to be successful with this remote team. It all lasted for approximately 5 months when they literally paid for the service that they were not receiving in full. Because whatever we were telling them wasn’t hurt, whatever we were sending them wasn’t read, whatever we asked them was not followed up. 4 or 5 months have passed and somewhere in between they had to cut the team, they had to cut relationships with us and they left unhappy, just because they were expecting something else. We were very much upfront honest with what we are providing, how this works and what kind of time investment it requires, not speaking of financial investments. We were very much transparent, but it wasn’t taken this way, unfortunately. Maybe due to some gaps on our side as well, as I don’t know one of the sides. But probably that was the case that I would be giving here, stressing out that it is very much important to any vendor, who wants to do their job good, to be in full communication and in full trust with the client of theirs.
Alfie: With Mobilunity clients, who are from around the globe, how do you manage that when it comes to language and time difference? Because you’re dealing with different countries, different cultures and belief systems.
Cyril: I agree it is the challenge for us and I agree that would be easier for us and for the teams to be working with somebody in the standard meaning of “nearshoring”? If it’s Switzerland, or Germany, or France, or the UK, or Norway, Sweden we’re 2-3 hours flight, 1 or maximum 2 hours time difference – that’s easy. When it comes to further markets, North America or Asia, it is different from the process organization point of view. The client is not present during the time when the team is operating – we are getting our clients prepared for this, we are stressing it on a few points, which are very much crucial to these long-distance clients of ours. We explain the essence of proper planning, we advise the way to organize the process with the remote team, when the remote team gets any questions, what they are supposed to be doing until they get the answers. Just because the answer from North America or maybe from Asia may be coming in just the next day or in two days.
We explain the essence of proper planning, we advise the way to organize the process with the remote team, when the remote team gets any questions, what they are supposed to be doing until they get the answers.
Language-wise with North America, it’s still easy because every developer of ours communicates in English. When the skill is not enough, we’re giving the classes and doing all the possible tutoring on-site of our office to ensure that in-person communication is in line with what the client is expecting. With a glance from Asia, it is more complicated, just because English is less used there in the business environment and in common life, we find the solutions: we are sometimes providing a communications manager knowing the language of that country to be bridging what’s in between the headquarters somewhere in Japan or South Korea or elsewhere, and our engineer here, who is just talking English, for example.
We are sometimes providing a communications manager knowing the language of that country to be bridging what’s in between the headquarters and our engineer here.
If it’s a time difference, like I mentioned with America, it’s one size difference, with Asia that would be another size difference. Asian countries are way ahead of the Ukrainian time zone and we got to be starting a little bit sooner in the morning. This comes to recruitment, when we know exactly what to expect from a client from Tokyo or South Korea or elsewhere.
These points are all important to us. We are putting a significant effort into ensuring that we are capable of providing the service that the clients will appreciate. Otherwise, it is to us and to the client that would be loss of time and loss of money to step into a relationship that does not have good chances to actually prevail.
Alfie: So you’re in the middle, where you are geographically – you’re in the middle of both of all time zones.
Cyril: Yes, talking of South Korea or Japan, for example, the developer may be starting at 8 AM and we still have 2-4 hours of simultaneous work with the Japanese colleagues of ours. If it’s America, then the teams are advised to be starting later, 11-12 AM or later. And to those people, who we hire, who prefer this kind of day schedule, of course, it’s also a benefit to be working on projects like this and we still provision an ability to the headquarters to be intersecting their teams for a significant period of time for at least 2-3 hours to be able to manage the process on a daily basis.
Alfie: If you had to choose another country to nearshore to, where would it be?
Cyril: I would say Poland. And the reason behind this is that: first, I used to work with Poles, these are good developers, guaranteed and second, they understand Ukrainians very well. They have alike motivation, they have alike approaches, they have alike levels, so I can see that that could be Poland.
On the other hand, Ukraine has lower “brain drain” problems than Poland does. Just because Poland is part of the European Union, where people are free to migrate and work in any EU country. Those Ukrainians, who wanted to get permission to work in the European Union, have already undertaken all the procedures and made their complex decision to go for some long-lasting contract in the EU and they’re already there. Everyone else in Ukraine is not in active search for some opportunities in Europe. They want to stay in Ukraine just because the way they earn and what they can afford in Ukraine – that’s a good life, they really are in the top percentage of people in Ukraine, who, as an industry, really earn very well. And those who stay here, obviously there is nothing as a competition between working for some Ukrainian company or going elsewhere like in Germany, France, Poland. So this is probably the most and the biggest advantage of choosing Ukraine over Poland or another EU country.
Alfie: Here’s one more thing, now that we’re dealing with COVID-19, what would you hope to take positively out of this experience out of dealing with COVID-19? What would you hope to take out of this experience?
Cyril: Two parts of my answer: first, I want to give a little bit of insight from Ukrainian only the situation. So, Ukraine overall (we are not taking IT industry into mind) is not too computer-literate nation. I am not speaking of developers, developers are very cool. But with the COVID thing with the crisis that hit us immediately, I see such growth from people, who are way far from computers, from the internet, something that happens there. I see these people are now using the conferencing tools, they’re using the word processors, they’re using spreadsheets, they’re using a full set of tools that was kind of a mystery for them like three months ago literally. Three months ago it was just a no-go. I see the offline businesses building up the e-commerce shops or some representation on the Internet in a way that it also speaks for their maturity. If I saw this 3 months ago, I wouldn’t even believe it. And I see the biggest take from these scary times for Ukraine specifically is that the whole nation and all the people are now way more comfortable in operating internet, remote things, remote collaboration, some platforms that are providing different accesses to different assets. Speaking of the whole world, I’ll probably say exactly the same, but with a different idea behind it, I would hope that after the COVID-19 crisis is gone and we’re all back to normal life, we still remember these times, when first, we needed to remember how meaningful and significant in the life collaboration is. Second, we saw all that remote work can be as good, as the office work and with this in mind, it waives the borders of minds, of mentalities, of philosophies to businesses who are now more capable of bringing on more alternatives. I am not pushing for our model specifically, I’m just saying that with the conditions we all got in during this crisis, we can be learning lots of very nice things and then utilizing them all time afterwards or lifetime.
We saw all that remote work can be as good, as the office work and with this in mind, it waives the borders of minds, of mentalities, of philosophies to businesses who are now more capable of bringing on more alternatives.
Alfie: So, we have a couple of questions just from the internet, which I am going to ask. The first question: is Ukraine safe?
Cyril: I’m very biased. I could be answering “yes, it is”, but nobody would trust me, because I’m Ukrainian. So if you don’t mind, I could just round it back to you as an expat, as an American who lives in Ukraine for 6 years.
Alfie: I would say that Ukraine is a place where, just like any big city, obviously, there has been some bad press in recent years. However, nowadays everyone’s getting bad press, so I have always said that when it comes to Ukraine, it’s a place where you can feel uncomfortable, especially as an expat, but you don’t feel unsafe. And I think a lot of it has to do with the media’s portrayal not having a clear understanding of what is actually going on. So, things like that really can hurt the perception, but overall it looks like any big city, just like if you were in the USA, New York or DC minus the guns. So, I think that Ukraine overall is safe.
When it comes to Ukraine, it’s a place where you can feel uncomfortable, especially as an expat, but you don’t feel unsafe.
Cyril: I also see lots of expats working for different companies, especially in IT here. Of course, there is a press pressure and what happens on our East and on our South – these are known serious problems to us, as a nation and of course we are certain that sooner or later, hopefully, sooner, we’ll get all the lands back and will be a full single country. But, speaking of the safety of being present in any big city of Ukraine, that Ukraine now keeps control over, it is a safe common life. COVID-19 has now hit Ukraine slightly less than the countries in the European Union and of course the USA. The people are moving freely, people are talking English, not everyone does, but when they don’t understand, they at least smile, and they say “yeah, sure”, but all in Ukrainian and then they’re trying to assist somehow. So, I am using this opportunity to welcome everyone to come to Kyiv, Ukraine, to see yourself that it is safe, it is very nice and it gets amazing people here.
Alfie: And here’s another question I have: what team size is good for nearshoring?
Cyril: That’s part of our internal discussions and belief, but we think that when the business comes for one or two developers, it can be bringing value to the client, but usually it’s the best start. To get real value from nearshoring you would hope in an ideal scenario of course like there are many of these scenarios where the specific need implies the size of one or two developers, but, generally speaking, the teams of five to ten people are bringing the most of what nearshoring model may be giving you. Cost inclusive, because on the team size like this you would also feel it on the cost amounts as well.
The teams of five to ten people are bringing the most of what nearshoring model may be giving you.
Alfie: Here’s another one: is there a difference in developers from Kyiv versus other cities in Ukraine?
Cyril: I cannot say there is a difference between developers, who grew up in Kyiv or other cities. We can be reflecting over the quality of education or experience these people could have. Speaking of Kyiv and other cities, I can just operate the numbers and I am stating that Kyiv as one city has approximately 40% of all developers in Ukraine, which means that every other city would be having fewer developers. And if there are fewer developers, then fewer companies will be coming to this specific city. And if there is a limited number of companies, then the experience these developers can be gaining is slightly lower than they could be getting in Kyiv. Just because in Kyiv there is a bigger competition for this bigger number of developers from a bigger number of companies.
Kyiv as one city has approximately 40% of all developers in Ukraine, which means that every other city would be having fewer developers.
And the second part is that the companies usually, if they do not have some story with some smaller city or town in Ukraine, they usually start with the capital, the biggest city, just because the variety of developers is bigger here. The competition is in place, so you would need to convince the developers to accept your offer, but we tend to believe that in Kyiv there is a bigger choice, more people are willing to move to Kyiv from other cities, than moving from Kyiv to other cities and towns. So, it all makes little things that make matter during the location selection. There might be some advantages, for example, I can say that in Kyiv the salaries are considered to be higher than in other towns. I’m not saying how much higher they are: a little bit higher here, significantly higher than there, but, as the capital city, it has a cost of living and the people are also expecting better wages. But it is not as drastically jumping from zero to dozens of zeros.
Alfie: What’s the biggest demand you get from developers?
Cyril: I can think of many, I’m not sure I can be saying it’s the biggest one, but I would split all our developers that we have and those, who were considering Mobilunity as their employer, into little groups so to say:
- To one group it is very much important that the office is exactly in this neighborhood. Just because they hate using public transport and it will matter a lot now with the COVID times. Once we are back to the office, they don’t want to be risking or they don’t want to be on public transport for more than 15 minutes, for example.
- Another group of people are driving the cars themselves and they enjoy car driving. They would want the big cars to be somewhere parked in a safe and secure place. So, parking in a downtown, where they are now, might be a problem for many companies, just because there is no space like in every big metropolis, there is no space downtown to park. We are lucky and happy to be able to produce that. But again, it matters not to everyone.
- Others may say they hate open spaces, they want to be given some intimacy with their colleagues from the same team or maybe beyond the offices. We’re like 6-8, maybe 10 people maximum, but it’s not an open space, where there are a hundred of people or two hundreds of people. And it may matter to some of them.
Many would ask more about the client and of course, these are very important questions. The initial items I named may be considered as something that, as a package, as a benefits package, that we are proposing. But understanding what domain the client is working in, what stack of technologies they are using and what a working process they’re utilizing – these three items would probably be the most crucial and important for our recruiting team to be able to find the right talent and developers got to be asking these questions. Because otherwise, they’re just probably seeking a paycheck or maybe they’re just willing to be part of our company. We shall be of course happy with, but typically these questions are the most important and these are the demands from the developers to come:
- What technology will be?
- Who will I work with?
- What kind of control will I have?
- What kind of assistance will I have from the headquarters?
- Will I be working with a local project manager or I’ll be working with the Japanese project manager?
- What language will I use?
- What time am I supposed to be at work to be interacting with this specific client?
- What kind of tracking tool will I be using the JIRA or Redmine or Trello or whatever?
Alfie: So basically the days of just having a developer with a computer, brand bag and free coffee are over.
Cyril: Not only over, but we find more and more Senior people not caring for these. They care about the clients, product, project and process and they care less of everything else. They need their hardware, that’s obvious – it must be a modern one, very fast, so it doesn’t put the constraints over the performance of a developer, brand bags (we have a couple of them), but really not a deal-breaker to any of the developers that we used to talk to.
Alfie: I’ll end it on this last one: what is the first thing you’re going to do once the quarantine has been lifted?
Cyril: I’m dreaming of a big party because I’m missing those. We have a tradition in Mobilunity of monthly gatherings. I wanted to say pizza parties, but sometimes we serve not pizza, but something else. Once a month we have a little agenda of what I could be talking about, the whole thing about, and we have some fun over there. So, people get together, they are happy to see new faces of those who just joined the company. They are happy seeing people from other floors, they are happy to hang out with the beer or with non-alcohol drinks. They are happy to have an ability to interact with each other and so much happy am I. Just because I’m missing these gatherings a lot and I would want to have a conversation with each and every of our guys and girls about how this period of time was, when they were remote, and how easy was that how good the collaboration with the teammates, etc. Of course, we have these meetings now, they are all in the remote mode and using the conferencing tools and our resource management team can tell me all these questions and then run these little chats with pretty much every team that we are having, but this is just different in any way. That would be awesome and pretty sure about that and I’m pretty sure they’d be the guys they’re dreaming of the same. They want to be relieved from this lock and just to have a little bit of fun all together.
Alfie: I think I’m probably in the same boat on that one with you, just because you want to talk to people, who have a drink and, if you drink at home alone, you feel like an alcoholic. So, you were to see other people and socialize and talk to people but, I think a lot of people are feeling the same way and I’m hoping that we’ll all be able to have a drink together at some point in the near future. So, that’s it for now I want to thank you for joining. We appreciate the insight!